Extra, Extra the US Navy just canceled 4 ships of the Constellation Class. Only the 2 ships currently under construction of the Constellation class may ever be built thanks to the problems caused by the massive design changes the US has made to the original design. So glad Canada didn't team up with them on this one.
Im a little concerned about the potential lack of avail platforms for MHP operations and capability if removed from a future light Frigate in CDC I would argue there is a need to ensure MHP pilots maintain actual helo ops skill sets and landing etc. I listened to the Topshee interview with much interest, and just not convinced that this opinion would be shared by the RCAF. AIROPs are an important skillet for pilots for day and night operations, and for the ship side operational control in the SAC training. For fleet transition 1 for 1 with Halifax and RCD planned, there is likely no issue, BUT, as a taxpayer, not sure why we would exclude this very important capability from the design of a CDC from the starting block. I wonder if it is lost RCAF potential? Vert reps are one thing, but even the MMSC LCS corvette just rolled out by fincanterari as hull 820 Saud, made me wonder why wouldnt we just nab that design and build them "cheap and nasty" for Canada. It may even soothe some diplomatic rifts with the US if we choose to do a mixed fighter fleet and cut the f35 down from 88 to accommodate a mixed fleet the jas-39. I mean, the design is done - print to build, no changes required on the MMSC, and besides it is an FMS candidate, ready to go and one mean looking capable "corvette" design that looks like it can defend itself quite nicely.
The freedom class are not in anyway ice strengthened and would feature an entire hull redesign. Not to mention all the issues the US had had with them. They are literally the reason why the US is going with the Constellation class to replace numbers that was planned for LCS.
Fair, I am feeling there maybe a resurgence happening given the lag in the constellation design for production all the same. I'm no expert but I think Canada could mod the design for hull strengthening and could easily make it a pc6(-) north atlantic variant and figure out the codlog propulsion issues and maintenance bits given the plethora of experience with faxs? Admittedly, maybe I am just in awe of the 820 Saud rollout video posted in the last couple weeks. Seems the (design from a combat capability) what was expected from the mission vignettes for LCS were well above what the RCN may be aiming for for CDC from a full on front line combat to something that could defend itself nicely. But, points accepted.
In my opinion for modern navies, <3000t is a Corvette, 3000-7000t is a Frigate, and >7000t is a Destroyer.
I'm worried that the scope creep is going to make these ships neither cheap nor quick to build. In my mind this ship should be able to be built within 7-12 months and commissioned within 14-22 months if we're going to need to replace combat losses in a conflict, which means the hulls should be under 100m.
I also did some rough cost calculations (probably wrong since its based on some internet AI-assisted sleuthing, others can feel free to correct me) and came up with the following USD cost estimates:
- Sensors (NS100 radar and M670 HMS sonar) ~$80mil
I've heard that sensors, weapons, and ammo account for about 60% of the total vessel cost, so for these capabilities, I estimate the total cost per hull to be almost $400mil USD.
I'd be more focused on underwater and assymetric threats. I would downgrade the radar to NS50 and keep the weapons loadout to 57mm, 2x20mm, 4 torps, and the 16-cell Mk-41 (you could load some of the cells with NSMs). That might lower the sensor, weapon and ammo cost to ~$141mil USD, needing a smaller hull and a lower total cost of ~$235mil USD. I think that could be more palatable to the politicians.
Am I totally out to lunch or do these costs sound reasonable? I didn't include costs for Satcoms, navigation, CMS, or EW equipment.
Noooo.... that would be a horrible idea. We actually need to increase the VLS numbers on those ships and maintain the numbers even at the cost of smaller numbers for the CDC.
Extra, Extra the US Navy just canceled 4 ships of the Constellation Class. Only the 2 ships currently under construction of the Constellation class may ever be built thanks to the problems caused by the massive design changes the US has made to the original design. So glad Canada didn't team up with them on this one.
I am so upset Substack doesnt allow Gifs in comments because I have so many memes I could pull right now.
Arleigh Burke 2100
Im a little concerned about the potential lack of avail platforms for MHP operations and capability if removed from a future light Frigate in CDC I would argue there is a need to ensure MHP pilots maintain actual helo ops skill sets and landing etc. I listened to the Topshee interview with much interest, and just not convinced that this opinion would be shared by the RCAF. AIROPs are an important skillet for pilots for day and night operations, and for the ship side operational control in the SAC training. For fleet transition 1 for 1 with Halifax and RCD planned, there is likely no issue, BUT, as a taxpayer, not sure why we would exclude this very important capability from the design of a CDC from the starting block. I wonder if it is lost RCAF potential? Vert reps are one thing, but even the MMSC LCS corvette just rolled out by fincanterari as hull 820 Saud, made me wonder why wouldnt we just nab that design and build them "cheap and nasty" for Canada. It may even soothe some diplomatic rifts with the US if we choose to do a mixed fighter fleet and cut the f35 down from 88 to accommodate a mixed fleet the jas-39. I mean, the design is done - print to build, no changes required on the MMSC, and besides it is an FMS candidate, ready to go and one mean looking capable "corvette" design that looks like it can defend itself quite nicely.
The freedom class are not in anyway ice strengthened and would feature an entire hull redesign. Not to mention all the issues the US had had with them. They are literally the reason why the US is going with the Constellation class to replace numbers that was planned for LCS.
Fair, I am feeling there maybe a resurgence happening given the lag in the constellation design for production all the same. I'm no expert but I think Canada could mod the design for hull strengthening and could easily make it a pc6(-) north atlantic variant and figure out the codlog propulsion issues and maintenance bits given the plethora of experience with faxs? Admittedly, maybe I am just in awe of the 820 Saud rollout video posted in the last couple weeks. Seems the (design from a combat capability) what was expected from the mission vignettes for LCS were well above what the RCN may be aiming for for CDC from a full on front line combat to something that could defend itself nicely. But, points accepted.
Thanks for the terminology stuff
In my opinion for modern navies, <3000t is a Corvette, 3000-7000t is a Frigate, and >7000t is a Destroyer.
I'm worried that the scope creep is going to make these ships neither cheap nor quick to build. In my mind this ship should be able to be built within 7-12 months and commissioned within 14-22 months if we're going to need to replace combat losses in a conflict, which means the hulls should be under 100m.
I also did some rough cost calculations (probably wrong since its based on some internet AI-assisted sleuthing, others can feel free to correct me) and came up with the following USD cost estimates:
- Sensors (NS100 radar and M670 HMS sonar) ~$80mil
- Weapons (57mm, 2x12.7mm, 8xNSM, 16-cell Mk-41 VLS, Mk-49 RAM, 4 Torpedo Tubes) ~$45mil
- Ammunition (for above weapons) ~$113.5mil
I've heard that sensors, weapons, and ammo account for about 60% of the total vessel cost, so for these capabilities, I estimate the total cost per hull to be almost $400mil USD.
I'd be more focused on underwater and assymetric threats. I would downgrade the radar to NS50 and keep the weapons loadout to 57mm, 2x20mm, 4 torps, and the 16-cell Mk-41 (you could load some of the cells with NSMs). That might lower the sensor, weapon and ammo cost to ~$141mil USD, needing a smaller hull and a lower total cost of ~$235mil USD. I think that could be more palatable to the politicians.
Am I totally out to lunch or do these costs sound reasonable? I didn't include costs for Satcoms, navigation, CMS, or EW equipment.
I can't find the screenshot on Wikipedia. Do you have the link?
It isn’t on Wikipedia.
I wonder if Rivers might be reduced to less than 15. Seems pretty high even now with CDC coming more into fruition.
Noooo.... that would be a horrible idea. We actually need to increase the VLS numbers on those ships and maintain the numbers even at the cost of smaller numbers for the CDC.
Wouldn't count on that 15 being reduced at all.